EDIT: Seems that our feedback did indeed have an effect, and that mourning in this thread is no longer necessary, because XBLIGs, as games, have been resurrected. So let this thread here rest in peace and move over to: http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/65669.aspx

Looks like all the Devs who made XBLIG apps had it right all the time, and we "Game" developers were the ones who had it wrong. As the new dashboard clearly shows, Microsoft does no longer consider XBLIGs to be "Games" (at least not "Games" enough to merit a place in the "Games & Demos" section).

So please stand with me in a minute of silence to mourn the passing away of Xbox LIVE Indie Games.


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Thank you!
If you want to express your condolences, please post below, but please refrain from sending flowers or cards...

Doc

Hey, at least we're on Game Marketplace... ;)

Seriously, I think that the gamers who used to visit our channel will find XBLIG anyway, no need to mourn. And top50 list and genre browsing are really nice changes. Microsoft is still the only one who allows developers like us to publish our games on their console.

As far as I can tell there are only two ways to access XBLIG besides irregular dashboard promotions: from the Speciality Shop and Avatar Games.

I think this is really bad for the service. I hope MS changes this but I doubt they will. If the service was more profitable, none of us would develop for the phone like they want us too.

I would like to suggest that this sucks.

I'd like to know the rationale behind it - at least then the community could try and come up with constructive alternatives, rather than being pushed further into obscurity.

Zedventure Games:

As far as I can tell there are only two ways to access XBLIG besides irregular dashboard promotions: from the Speciality Shop and Avatar Games.

I meant that the Specialty Shops are still under Game Marketplace.

Anyway, let me repost what I said in the other thread:
We get what we deserve... I can imagine that placing us next to Games on Demand could reduce GoD's traffic by 10%. And I don't think that total XBLIG's revenue is more than 10% of GoD's. No shopkeeper will place his least popular stuff in front of his shop window.

It just.. boggles the mind. Clearly it's not based on even the simplest logic.. which is what I'd assume gamers vaguely use when scrolling through those lists. It's not like there's not enough space (there's only 3 boxes in Games and Demos.) It's a categorical failure (literally).

Gamer "I'd like a game". They go to the Games and Demos spot. And then they're done. No one will naturally think 'games' are in the specialty store.

I do think once someone accidentally wanders down the special alley to find Indie Games, the new layout is very nice. I love that you can click on the "All" box at the end of any 50 list--that's grand.

But I'm here to mourn Indie Games being known as 'games', which I suppose we must now rename Indie Specialties.

I'm still not sure how I feel about this. I'm still working on my amazing kick-ass game simulation app. It will assign you a numeric indicator based on your ability to move a overly detailed cursor around the screen. For added effect my cursor is emitting a series of trailing graphics to make it appear extra pretty. Something I saw in flash once. If you can maneuver the cursor well through a series of things that will damage it you will hopefully experience a rush of adrenaline and want to repeat the process to become better at moving the cursor.

I sucks, but I blame the customer. The customer decides what games/apps they want to see on the service. If they pay for crap, we will throw more at them - can't be easier..

This is insulting.
 
We are not under the "Titles A-Z".
We are not under "Games".

Is XBLIG not worth the opportunity cost of chewing up marketing space tabs under the appropriate channels?

How do we get this changed?

EDIT: I want to make it clear that I am not crying foul with no solution at hand. I have a solution, one that stops Indie Games from deserving to be tucked away from "Games & Demos". Firstly, the solution is not that we need to stop making bad games, that is like Google complaining about webmasters making bad websites and blaming it for their demise. The solution is accepting that a long-tail unrestricted game market contains bad games and dealing with it. My proposed solution is here, http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/64728.aspx, which basically suggests a "top releases" default tab that shows only 3.5+ rated games, to be the new face of XBLIG. It is more detailed, but that's the basics. This is a take off of the Digg.com handling lots of bad stories submitted, but still managing to have a main page "face" that is positive and high quality. We need to change the face of XBLIG so gamers looking for games enjoy it, and gamers willing to dig deep for the cool knick-knacks and oddball titles can still do so. Best of both worlds. It's just an idea. I'd love to hear feedback on it.

Steam Heroes was one of the first games to come out after the new dash change, and I have to say that our sales have been beyond horrible (which is suprising, as I'd say it's one of the better games I've released on XBLIG ) .  Because no-one's going to there, or because the game's utter ***? Well, hard to say, but it'd be interesting to hear if anyone else has had a massive downturn in sales since the new dash has gone in?

Matthew Doucette:

This is insulting.
 
We are not under the "Titles A-Z".
We are not under "Games".

agreed.

In case you haven't tried playing an XBLIG yet, this fine screen (crafted by an intern in 10 whole minutes, no doubt) is what will greet you:



The picture speaks for itself. XBLIG is dead.

Matthew Doucette:

How do we get this changed?

Oy, this is depressing. :(
I don't really have anything else to add beyond that.
Wait and see what happens, I guess?

ProjectorGames:

Steam Heroes was one of the first games to come out after the new dash change, and I have to say that our sales have been beyond horrible (which is suprising, as I'd say it's one of the better games I've released on XBLIG ) .  Because no-one's going to there, or because the game's utter ***? Well, hard to say, but it'd be interesting to hear if anyone else has had a massive downturn in sales since the new dash has gone in?

New dash is live for a couple of hours, you can't have any data for today - the last sales numbers are for 30th.

Xalterax:

Matthew Doucette:

How do we get this changed?

1) Every developer, all at once only puts out, serious, respectable, and polished games. From this point forward no junk games appear on the service.

2) All the big websites take notice as the channel quickly fills with tons of amazing game content at budget prices and loads of links direct people to us.

3) All the sudden the gaming public starts to choose XBLIG XBLIS over even AAA and XBLA titles, because we offer just as good content for a fraction of the price.

4) We outsell XBLA for at least one quarter.

5) MS starts to promote us front and center, because we're starting to pay the bills.

Will this happen?

No.

So, to reiterate:

Matthew Doucette:

How do we get this changed?

Nothing.

**Edit: @BobTaco

WHAT THE $#%^!!! Where's my icon? My Box Art? Why do I even bother uploading these? That screen makes Indie Games look like files...akin to an MP3 - except those probably at least still have descriptions and artist information. WTB patch, kthxbai.

Loving your positivity and constructive approach there Xalterax.

Microsoft control the channel to market, and can therefore choose to help if they so wished.

There's a few reasons why things might have ended up like this, in my opinion:

1. XBLIG are a footnote when trying to re-architect a sprawling IA.
2. Microsoft need to protect their main money-makers by giving them preference on things like search.
3. Someone genuinely thought this reflected users' mental models best.
4. XBLIG are mostly crap, and should therefore be hidden.

I'd say all three play a part. However, the latter is something that could be more constructively tackled by cutting the data in different ways - for example, having 'apps' in the Speciality dept, and actual games somewhere more prominent.

Sad to see, but not unexpected given the direction of the platform for the past several months. I know the XNA dev team have worked hard on XNA 4.0 to standardise cross-platform features & compatibility etc, but it seems like it's a waste of time and effort.

Personally, I've stopped work on my two XBLIG projects until I see a clear and positive direction emerge for XBLIG, and so far it's not looking good.

*RIP*

I am not totally convinced it is Game Over just yet. It might even lead to something better. The quality games seem to get a lot of promotion from the community hype (see Kris "hypership out of control"). It might be that the quick-buck games will fall away and the quality will stay.

Microsofts new selling target is Soccer Moms - that are allergic to anything but Colorful 3d Kinect games. So I can fully understand if they want to stuff us away from their sight.

ProjectorGames:

Steam Heroes was one of the first games to come out after the new dash change, and I have to say that our sales have been beyond horrible (which is suprising, as I'd say it's one of the better games I've released on XBLIG ) .  Because no-one's going to there, or because the game's utter ***? Well, hard to say, but it'd be interesting to hear if anyone else has had a massive downturn in sales since the new dash has gone in?

So pretty much all the worst suppositions since AppHub came in to being have turned out to be right.  The XBLA studios wouldn't put up with XBLIG on the same screenspace, MS want us all to swallow their **** and move over to get ****ed as WP7 developers - who will updoubtably be treated in the same shoddy, half-baked way as we have when the project fails - which MS mobile offerings always, ALWAYS do.

The channel has failed because MS wouldn't address the problems with the channel image which stemmed from crapplications and poor quality games, which we've been making a noise about since the service launched.  It also failed because MS know there's a disconnect between web publicity and hard-to-access areas on the dash (see Games Room, which has done even more badly than we have) and flatly refuse to even acknowledge there's been a problem, let alone enter in to a debate about it.  And I'll bet dollars to donuts it'll take about 5 days before someone gets off their backside and posts a news item saying "Indie games are now available from the following areas" on the AppHub front page.  As usual we have no idea where we stand, what the future holds, who to talk to about our concerns, and no reliable mechanism to get those concers aired.  Connect is a joke, the lack of MS presence in the forums is staggering, the way the IGN list is administered is laughable, and the original idea of "democratising" game development for the xbox is about as dead as it gets.  Moving the dash ratings system to the marketplace rather than game info panel will murder one of the most important lists - Top Rated - and the move away from the games marketplace will murder Top Downloads.  It's now beyond doubt to me that the days of the channel are over in any meaningful sense.  We've been hung out to dry - yet again - and MS have dropped the ball - again - in one of the few chances they have to genuinely compete with Apple. 

I still can't believe we pay for this absolute pile of pig****.  I wouldn't treat a dog the way we've been treated over the last few months.

Deej:

Loving your positivity and constructive approach there Xalterax.

Microsoft makes peanuts off of XBLIG. It probably doesn't even pay the salary of that intern which did the screens Bob Taco shows.
I'm actually surprised we didn't end up worse than we did. At least we are 2nd on specialties and next to the Avatar store and not the the 12th tab on the specialty shop behind the various music shops (although that may change in a month when the music shops complain).

I don't know that we are that much worse off than before. Now we have a pretty picture on a tab instead of a menu item everyone skipped over to get where they wanted. I'm not sure I understand what that picture has to do with indie games though.

I don't think it is an issue of getting good games and getting noticed. People will make what sells. The reason IPhone Apps do so well is because Apple supports the app store even with all the fart apps. The good apps get noticed. Microsoft created these wonderful tools, but they play a very hands off approach to the games. I assume that is because they don't want to get sued. But why doesn't Apple or Google see that as a problem?

Xalterax:

I still think it was a bit much to drop box art/descriptions from downloaded indie games though. Some us work very hard on that and its a shame that it will be hidden outside of the marketplace. Really hoping there will be a patch for that.

Agreed - it seems like a hasty oversight that does nothing for the channel owner, content creator or consumer.

Photonic Games:

Microsoft makes peanuts off of XBLIG. It probably doesn't even pay the salary of that intern which did the screens.

I'd question that. Think of some of the big sellers that have sold 100,000+ copies, and then the countless others that have sold hundreds.

Whilst the XBLIG initiative probably does rest on it's ability to provide a return on investment, the XNA project is probably a cost rather than profit centre. I would expect that the whole thing wasn't intended to have a direct impact on bottom lines, but instead increase adoption of Microsoft tools, drive developer loyalty and pave the way for some strategic thinking that may have fallen by the wayside or we may be yet to see.

Don't forget, Indies aren't the only people using XNA, so XBLIG could have been a cheap way to monetise the investment in the overall XNA programme.

Edit - Just realised that seems a bit contrary. The point I'm trying to get at is that the profitability of XBLIG may not be that big a concern, nor its running costs. However, stacked up against things like maintaining publisher relations, it's definitely a low priority.